Black Cat ★ Red Cat

Σοσιαλισμος ή βαρβαροτητα: Μαριναλεδα ή Μανωλαδα.

I don’t need to flaunt my national identity.

24.4.2012

Because…

I really hate equating public service workers, like teachers, doctors, social workers with thieves.

I do drink ouzo and say Opa, but I don’t make a big deal out of it. It’s just who I am.

My country is a deformed democracy. And it has been for most of its modern history, except a few isolated instances, where popular democracy was actually crushed by fellow Greeks claiming ancient heritages and bullshit like that.

I speak Greek and other languages, and most of the people in my country speak many foreign languages. In fact we have an astounding variety of languages, including Pashto, Urdu, Arabic, along with Balkan languages, which nationalists want to eliminate (just like they did with Ladino, Vlach, Albanian and Slavic).

I could probably sew my country’s flag in my backpack, but I probably won’t, unless it is to piss off euro-racists.

Greece’s heritage goes far beyond the geographical borders. It invented the West… My sincerest apologies about that.

I do not need to “believe” in Hellenism. I live it without making it a zombie nationalist ideology.

If my government owes anybody any money, that has nothing to do with my national identity. It has everything to do with the biggest crisis in Capitalism since 1929.

I do believe in Freedom, so if I need to, I rebel.

I believe in the joy of life. I have the right to, just like everyone else on the planet. There’s nothing wrong with that!

I can no longer swim in the waters of over 6000 islands, because me and my friends were led to immigration.

My country is of exceptional beauty, and tradition, which I want to live and share with the world, not put in a musem. But not all traditions are good. For example, sadly, the patriarchal, sexist and homophobic Greek family remains a “sacred institution”.

You call me Greek, Recko, Hellene, Yunan, Yavan, Saberdzneti, Džieltimohk, Girisha. I go by many names and they are all correct.

(In response to this …thing.)

06.03

134^2
04.03

untitled
16.02

Pride
01.12

Organizing In Israel-Palestine After October 7
19.11

Protesting for peace is being criminalized
16.11

Karl Tremblay 💔

93 responses to “I don’t need to flaunt my national identity.”

Planitas

2012.04.24

At last… I thought I was the only one who found this vid the absolute national kitch.

Reply
Alla

2012.04.24

Fortunately, you’re not alone. The best reply to that ridiculous video

Reply
gazakas

2012.04.24

I made some remarks about a couple of things that bothered me in this naive (to say the least) video with three tweets earlier today, but your answer to this delirium is the best possible! For the record, my two pennies in the matter: “no, my dear @katmouts, your country isn’t a Democracy; actually, it disgraces the very term every day. furthermore, dear @katmouts, your country DIDN”T invent the concept of democracy, unless your country is the ancient city-state of Athens; not to mention the fact that if you claim your country invented democracy you have to say the same about tyrants as well”

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fra

2012.04.25

all fair that you have a response to this little video thingie, but let’s set the record straight a bit: because the “patriarchal, sexist and homophobic Greek family ” as you call it is one of the reasons that not more Greek young people end up in mental institutions by the day and that not many elder people end up deserted in public care houses… it is one of the many reasons that help people stay humane and one that gives them cause. no need to devalue and desecrate it, for there are a million other “institutions” and elements of so-called “tradition” to blame for were we stand now.

Reply
1. plagal
  
  2012.04.25
  
  Are you seriously suggesting that if the traditional Greek family was not (or was less) patriarchal, sexist and homophobic it would not be able to perform its social role?
  
  Reply
  1. fra
    
    2012.04.25
    
    no, i’m suggesting that giving these, and only these, as its main attributes, is a very one-sided, let alone untrue approach
    
    Reply
    1. gazakas
      
      2012.04.25
      
      the way I perceived plagal’s remark on the Greek family was that it remains a “sacred institution” even in the case it is still patriarchal, sexist and homophobic.
    2. plagal
      
      2012.04.25
      
      Fra, I don’t need to be “objective” here, I’m not writing a monograph on the role of the modern Greek family. Silly as it is, I’m debunking soundbites with soundbites. Why do you get so defensive about it?
Mihalis

2012.04.25

Perhaps people like Katerina wouldn’t feel the need to flaunt their national identity so strongly if there weren’t so many Hellenes who did the exact opposite, and actively bad-mouthed practically every single aspect of their country (including those negative qualities held by many other societies in the world today). Perhaps if there wasn’t so much self-loathing, which I see and hear and observe on a daily basis, there wouldn’t be the need for someone like Katerina to stand up and say “wait a minute, I’m not a walking stereotype, nor am I what people think I am!” Perhaps if we didn’t put up, for all of these years, with the stereotypes and misinformation that the rest of the world have cast Greece and the Greek people with…even during the good times…we wouldn’t need a youtube video starring Katerina to “flaunt” our national identity.

Greece may not be an ideal democracy, but which country is? How about the United States, where a man who did not win the popular vote OR the electoral vote won the elections and became president? How’s that for democracy? We need to get over ourselves and over this collective thought process that always makes us “worse” than those “civilized” Westerners. Patriarchal, sexist, and homophobic Greek family? I have to wonder if some people have even traveled abroad to see what patriarchy, sexism, and homophobia really are.

Maybe we should stop looking at foreigners as if they are “gods” and create our own positive example, and in fact, also embrace the fact that we do have some positive qualities as well. Instead of being ashamed of them, maybe we should be proud of them, and find our own solutions to what isn’t working, instead of ridiculing someone who spoke up for her country at a time where most people from that country apparently are too embarassed to do so. Thank you.

Reply
1. plagal
  
  2012.04.25
  
  To a certain extent, you’re very right. Contemporary Greek identity does feel threatened. Part of it is due to a process of losing privilege (“what, I’m like the Bulgarians now?”), part of it is traditional Greek nationalism/exceptionalism of the “ethnos anadelfon” category, and part of it is legitimate rage towards blatantly racist stereotyping in the international media (like the “lazy Greek” stereotype). The last one is really legit (and that’s why I mentioned “euro-racists”); the other ones don’t concern me. In my opinion, much of this video was of the first two kinds, that’s why I wanted to respond the way I did. To the last kind, I’ve responded differently in the past.
  
  Regarding comparisons with advanced capitalist countries like the US or Canada, I’m not making any. Other than that, I fully agree with replies posted to you below.
  
  Reply
  1. Mihalis
    
    2012.04.25
    
    The comparisons with “advanced” (in name only) capitalist countries are being made precisely because so many Greeks nowadays do exactly that: everything they perceive to be negative about Greece is compared immediately to the “εξωτερικό.” As someone who has spent much of their life in one of these countries, I’m here to offer a perspective that, in my opinion, is met with disbelief by most people in Greece, because they think that Greece’s problems are not found in, say, the United States, or the wealthier countries of Europe. They think there is little to no corruption, that there is a social safety net for everyone, that the education system is problem-free, that crime is less and that the police is effective, that there is no problem with illegal immigration (either because there isn’t any or because the immigrant issue is effectively dealt with), and so on. And every single one of those things is wrong, and I have lived it and I read about it every day. As for the video, I did not get the impression at all that this actress was responding to a fear of losing “privilege” nor would I place this video in the nationalism/exceptionalism category. In fact, I would venture to say that it is quite sad that any positive words about Greece today by Greeks are automatically interpreted as “nationalism.”
    
    Reply
    1. plagal
      
      2012.04.25
      
      Αλλα λεμε και αλλα καταλαβαινομαστε μου φαινεται.
2. Nikoletta
  
  2012.04.25
  
  @ Mihalis : so the main argument is, as far as we are less patriarchical, sexist and homophobic than the americans (which entails a generalisation over 50 states), we are fine? Nevertheless, I cannot see a statement claiming greeks are the most homophobic people on earth on plagal’s test. I beleive the point being made is, there is room for improvement, what traditionally has been there is not good per definition, using an example to justify the claim.
  
  Reply
  1. plagal
    
    2012.04.25
    
    Yes ντε!
    
    Reply
  2. Mihalis
    
    2012.04.25
    
    No, that’s not the argument at all. There is an astonishing lack of logic around here, it seems. The argument is that we are criticizing this actress for making this video where she proclaims her pride in being a Hellene. The author of this blog post responds to that video by pointing out numerous aspects of the country’s past and present that he is not proud of. I’m responding to that by pointing out that the same is true of pretty much every other country out there. Everyone has dirty laundry. And it isn’t just the United States that I was referring to when talking about homophobia, sexism, and patriarchy, but most countries around the world, including most “advanced” European countries. Just ask the voters of all those far-right wing parties in France, Holland, Denmark, Austria, and Switzerland, just for starters. So, it is absolutely silly to jump all over this actress and this video and its message, just because *some* Greek families are patriarchal, sexist, and/or homophobic, as if that doesn’t exist anywhere else, as if it is somehow a problem unique to Greece. As for generalizing across 50 states, as you claim, well, that’s no different than generalizing all Greek families and the country as a whole with the statements about patriarchy, sexism, and homophobia. And @plagal: I expected a better response from you than your sarcastic reply below. Shame on you.
    
    Reply
    1. plagal
      
      2012.04.25
      
      Δεν σαρκαζω. Σου εχω απαντησει σε οσα μου καταλογιζεις, για τις συγκρισεις και συνεχιζεις να λες το ιδιο πραμα.
      
      Επιπλεον, να σου δωσω μια κιτρινη καρτα γιατι δεν ειναι ωραιο να εχεις παρει εργολαβια το ρολο του απαντητη σε καθε σχολιο στο ιστολοι μου. Aν διαβαζω σωστα, εχεις μια ενδιαφερουσα οπτικη και ενδιαφερουσες εμπειριες που θελεις να μοιραστεις. Θα σου προτεινα λοιπον να ανοιξεις ενα δικο σου μπλογκ και να ποσταρεις οσο θελεις. Αλλα καθε δευτερο σχολιο στο ποστ αυτο να ειναι δικο σου, ε δεν ειναι και το υγειεστερο πραμα. Λαου λαου λοιπον, γιατι στην κοκκινη καρτα πεφτει τσεκουρας ξεδιαντροπα.
    2. Nikoletta
      
      2012.04.25
      
      I will not talk for plagal, because I have no right to do so, but I really believe you are exaggerating the point here. Not everyone criticizing (or laughing at) the video (including me) criticizes people proclaiming their pride in being Greeks (not Χελήν, Greeks -ξεκολλάτε!), I would be criticizing the style, the arguments and the whole concept. I am not proud of the sacred greek institution called family, because ‘sacred’ means that I am not supposed to comment on or even be able to see the shortcomings. Should a response point out any shortcomings, it does not constitute a demonstration of dirty laundry, or a secret mission to destroy one’s own country. This does not mean that I am not proud of my own family, in fact it has nothing to do with what I think of my own family or the family of my neighbours. Once again, no one ever said it is a problem of Greece only, but at the same time, no one brought up Xrisi Augi or LAOS, so I miss the point in the comparison with the european far right parties. And yes, I am happy our country can boast about those wonderful beaches – I would not use the word proud, as it is not my achievement, but this is a matter of taste – and I will not stop being happy about it just because there are great beaches and beautiful islands on other parts of the world. Following the same principle, I will not stop being upset at the negative aspects, just because they are not unique to Greece.
Servitoros

2012.04.25

as you call it is one of the reasons that not more Greek young people end up in mental institutions by the day and that not many elder people end up deserted in public care houses…
—–
Mental health in Greece is one of its most well hidden secrets. Due to the patriarchal, sexist and homophobic and may i add conservative nature of the greek family, mental health problems had remained hidden until recently. Thus, it is now fashionable for d list celebrities or bankrupt lifestyle tycoons to publicly claim that they are depressed. Patriarchy, sexism and homophobia have significant factor in many cases of mental illness in Greece. It is no coincidence that the vanguard of greek traditional family values: the greek countryside has an extremely high use of antidepressants and sleeping pills by greek housewives.

Reply
1. Mihalis
  
  2012.04.25
  
  As opposed to other countries, that are 100% tolerant, 100% upfront of any mental issues, 100% non-homophobic. Give us a break. As someone who was born and grew up in the United States, I can share with you numerous shocking stories of racism, of homophobia, patriarchy, sexism, abuse of drugs and antidepressants, not to mention, the nation’s incredibly high incarceration rate. How about the incident where schoolteachers were discovered to have been bullying an autistic child that was a student of theirs? How about the recent race-motivated murder of an unarmed black youth and the refusal, for weeks, to arrest the man who killed him? How about the incredibly high percentage of even school-aged children who are already over-medicated, walking zombies? Or all of the murders of gay men and women by homophobes? These incidents happen every day in just the societies that many “holier than thou” Hellenes look up to as examples of moral, ethical, legal, economic, and political uprightness. Perhaps we should get over ourselves and our self-loathing. No one is denying that there aren’t problems in Greece, but doing the opposite: making EVERYTHING (or almost everything) in Greece look bad and implying that things are better in the rest of the “civilized” and “developed” world is just as wrong.
  
  Reply
  1. Servitoros
    
    2012.04.25
    
    USA has been a role country for the cultural values developed in Greece since the end of the Civil War, so I am not suprised about the similarities. However, the “but they beat the blacks” argument is a bit of the strawman, I am Greek and reside in Greece, my main priority are the issues in Greece not social and cultural issues in US, Yemen or the Smurf Village.
    
    Reply
    1. Mihalis
      
      2012.04.25
      
      Your priority are the issues in Greece, as they should be if you are residing in Greece. The problem, however, is that many in Greece always choose to compare their country and its shortcomings (real or otherwise) to those other countries, including the United States. And the United States and its values have not just influenced Greece but much of the world, with often highly negative results. So let’s not pretend that this is just a Greek problem. And we can find plenty of incidents of racism, sexism, and homophobia throughout “civilized” Europe as well.
  2. Nikoletta
    
    2012.04.25
    
    There’s no doubt incidents of racism are plentiful all around the world – who is claiming that this is just a greek problem? Who is saying Greece is less ‘civilized’ than the rest of Europe. Surely not plagal.
    
    Reply
    1. Mihalis
      
      2012.04.25
      
      Plenty of people are. I hear it in Greece every single day. People talk about what is happening in the other, “civilized” (πολιτισμένες) countries around the world. And yes, those undertones are contained in plagal’s response to, because he is responding to the video by dredging up what seems like any negative attribute about Greek society, past or present, that he could think of, whether or not it is even within the original scope of the video. As if all those problems are unique to Greece and therefore proclaiming any pride in your country makes you a “racist” or “homophobe” or “nationalist.”
  3. Mania Oikonomou
    
    2012.04.25
    
    @Mihalis, surely you have lost the plot..and by doing that you are putting things into other people’s mouths. Of course and no one glorifies other countries ..this is purely your assumption…additionally, no one is more blind to any problems that Greek society has, than the immigrants and second generations of immigrants who glorify Greece to the point of sanctify it…
    
    Reply
    1. Mihalis
      
      2012.04.25
      
      Mania, you are way, way off with your comments. PLENTY of people that I communicate with in Greece every day do just that: glorify other countries. I hear it, I see it, I live it every day. So my response is not coming out of nowhere, and stop pretending that it is a pure “assumption” on my part. The author of this post is dredging up negative attributes about Greek society to refute this video, as if these negative attributes are somehow unique to Greece (they’re not). And your blanket assumption about the “immigrants” who “glorify Greece” are also very wrong. Most Greek-Americans I know, in fact, are quite negative towards Greece, and if they do have anything good to say, it is kitschy “opa” and “ouzo” statements that the video was actually *responding to* and not glorifying! Your comments, however, do reflect the overriding and absolutely incorrect mentality and stereotype that most people in Greece have about the “omogeneia,” which contains within it undertones of sarcasm and dislike.
  4. Mania Oikonomou
    
    2012.04.25
    
    as plagal said in response to another comment further down, we will never see eye to eye!! And your fixation to attack everyone who disagrees with you is more than sad, unfortunately you are lowering the level of this conversation, especially when you proclaimed that plagal should be ashamed of himself…
    
    Reply
    1. Mihalis
      
      2012.04.25
      
      As opposed to plagal’s mature (and apparently now deleted…so much for standing by your words) comment. Obviously you’re the one letting your biases get in the way of your opinion. You will actually see I agreed with plagal further down on certain things he said. So no, there is no “fixation” to attack. I call it as I see it.
    2. plagal
      
      2012.04.25
      
      What was deleted??? There are comments further up the page. See, if you comment everywhere, everything is everywhere.
    3. Mania Oikonomou
      
      2012.04.25
      
      Μιχάλη ..get a life…η ξεκίνα το δικό σου μπλογκ..βαρέθηκα και την μουτσάτσου και την αγωνία σου να αποδείξεις πως σε παρεξηγούν/προσπαθούν να σου κλείσουν το στόμα/ πως έχεις δίκιο/πως δεν έχεις εμμονές κλπ κλπ κλπ
anti

2012.04.25

perfect

Reply
1. Mihalis
  
  2012.04.25
  
  Could you please point us towards “non-deformed” democracies please?
  
  Reply
Δημήτρης

2012.04.25

Είσαι σίγουρος ότι τα αρβανίτικα, τα βλάχικα και τα σεφαραδίτικα τα εξαφάνισε ο ελληνικός εθνικισμός; Εγώ ξέρω ότι σχετικά μέτρα είχαν ληφθεί μόνο κατά των σλαβομακεδόνικων.

Reply
1. Mihalis
  
  2012.04.25
  
  Ρωτήστε τους “πολιτισμένους” Αμερικανούς, Άγγλους, Γερμανούς, Γάλλους, κλπ. να σου πούνε πόσους πολιτισμούς και πόσες γλώσσες έχουν καταστρέψει στην ιστορία τους, που τους έχουν και μερικοί ‘Ελληνες σαν σύγχρονους Θεούς…
  
  Reply
  1. hristakis
    
    2012.04.25
    
    Λοιπόν για να μιλάμε ιστορικά σωστά, το Ελληνικό Κράτος καθ’ όλην τη διάρκεια της δημιουργίας του μέχρι και την σημερινή κατάκτηση των συνόρων του, “επέβαλε” την ομογένεια στον πληθυσμό του, για αυτό και εξαφάνισε γλώσσες και ναι την μεγαλύτερη “δουλειά” σε αυτό την έκανε ο “δημοκρατικός” Μεταξάς.
    Δεν παίρνω θέση αν έκαναν σωστά ή όχι απλά αναφέρω τα ιστορικά γεγονότα
    
    Reply
    1. Δημήτρης
      
      2012.04.25
      
      Το ελληνικό κράτος δεν είχε λόγους να ανησυχεί για τη γλωσσική διαφορά των Βλάχων και των Αρβανιτών, αφού είχαν εξελληνιστεί συνειδησιακά πολύ πριν αφομοιωθούν γλωσσικά. Ενδεικτικά, παραθέτω τις διαπιστώσεις ενός Τούρκου εθνικιστή (Tekin Alp), που εν έτει 1928 έμεινε εντυπωσιασμένος από τη ομαλή ένταξη αυτών των ομάδων στο ελληνικό έθνος και την απουσία κάθε διάκρισης εις βάρος τους:
      
      “I myself know many people in Greece who are in origin Vlach,
      Bulgarian or Albanian and who have been completely
      “Greekified” by means of nationalization. They speak Greek as
      their mother tongue but at home they can only speak with their
      old mothers and fathers in Vlach or Bulgarian. Such men can
      often be met among the heads of the financial and economic
      institutions, and even among the high officials of state. There are
      many around them who know their genealogical tree, but no one
      looks down on them. They see no need to hide their origins.”
      
      Από το “Ottomans, Turks and the Balkans” της Ebru Boyar, σελ. 124.
    2. plagal
      
      2012.04.25
      
      Ναι αλλα και δεν την ανεδειξε ποτε την γλωσσικη πολυμορφια, δεν ενδιαφερθηκε ποτε να περισωσει αυτες τις πολυτιμες παραδοσιακες γλωσσες (και στην πορεια εκανε και τη μαλακια να μην περισωσει Ελληνικες τοπικες διαλεκτους οπως τα Τσακωνικα).
      
      Στην καλυτερη περιπτωση δηλαδη, βολικη αδιαφορια. Στη χειροτερη (οπως με τα μακεντονσκι) ενεργητικη καταπιεση.
DimosK

2012.04.25

i still prefer to talk about hellenism or whatever with katerina rather than the author of the article!!
i like to..convice her otherwise over a glass of ouzo!
(pls she do that for personal beneffit dont make her video a biger think than it is)

Reply
1. Mihalis
  
  2012.04.25
  
  Convince her otherwise from what?
  
  Reply
Кроткая

2012.04.25

Mihalis,
are you taking the fact that other cases are eventually worse than ours as a reason for not pointing out what our negative sides are? I mean, ok, others are worse, so I’m ok?
The discussion here is not about US, France or Canada. It is about Greece and you are misleading the discussion.

After all, ok my passport says I am Greek and I am fine with that, but that’s no big deal. After all, I am myself and I am really happy about that.

Reply
DimosK

2012.04.25

..thats irrelevant!!
i really hope in the end of conversation,nobody will remember why we started it.
Ouzo effect!

Reply
Panagiotis

2012.04.25

we all agree that she is a hot babe.

Reply
1. plagal
  
  2012.04.25
  
  Yellow card to DimosK and Panagiotis: it’s too easy to derail this into a sexist discourse. Yes, K.M. is a beautiful woman, but here (where I get to make the rules) we’re going to respect her, by discussing her video, not her looks.
  
  Reply
2. Mania Oikonomou
  
  2012.04.25
  
  and when the going gets tough the average greek tries to alleviate problems with self-conscious humour, turning on the sexual jokes..that of course proves ones more that the average greek was raised in totally patriarchal sexist family…sad
  
  Reply
  1. Mihalis
    
    2012.04.25
    
    Honestly none of the Greeks I know do that, and that includes a large extended family and large network of friends. Either I know some exceptional people or you know some real “special” people. But yet again, no different than sexism, patriarchy, etc. as it manifests itself elsewhere. Unless you think that the “developed” world has solved these problems and that kolopetinitsa Greece is the only one that’s remaining that is backward.
    
    Reply
serialthinkers

2012.04.25

Reblogged this on serialthinkers and commented:
are you #hellene? so what?

Reply
vasvas

2012.04.25

Well done Mihali.

Reply
1. Mihalis
  
  2012.04.25
  
  Thank you. It’s nice to have some support amongst this hysteria.
  
  Reply
MichaelC

2012.04.25

A number of problems with this post. One, the ‘West’ wasn’t invented by anyone. It evolved, its influences are broad and its origins varied. While ancient Greeks had plenty to do with that, it doesn’t provide modern Greeks, including yourself, any credit – so no need to ‘apologize’ – we know you’re not responsible.

If your government owes any money it is because it has borrowed too much and if elections held in Greece are anything to go by the majority of people didn’t have a problem with that. If you don’t want to pay the money back then elect (or otherwise put in place) a government that defaults. Nothing is stopping the Greek masses from doing this except, it seems, a reluctance to leave ‘Europe.’ If Greece is so secure in her identity as the ‘inventor’ of the West then it is a mystery as to why leaving the EU would make it any less European. But perhaps your identity isn’t as secure as you’d like us to presume.

What’s a ‘euro-racist’?

If you believe in Freedom are you opposed to capitalism? If the crisis is the fault of ‘capitalism’ as you label it, then why is the crisis hardest in Greece whose economy resembles socialism?

You weren’t led to immigration – you chose, like thousands of others, to leave Greece. You could choose to return. What you mean to say is that you left because opportunities were better elsewhere. You value those opportunities higher than you value swimming the coasts of your islands. No-one has forced you to leave anymore than those who stayed in Greece were forced to do so.

Reply
1. lascapigliata
  
  2012.04.25
  
  FFS Greece doesnt have socialism, it never had.
  
  Reply
  1. MichaelC
    
    2012.04.25
    
    Depending on how you define socialism that may or may not be so. But the Greek government is estimated to, either directly or indirectly, employ 25% of all workers. It owns factories, controls goods and service contracts for industries ranging from grain imports to telecommunications equipment (leading to endemic corruption). The Greek government owns hotels and ressorts, nickel mines, railway companies, casinos, banks, golf courses, thermal baths, marinas, airports etc etc.
    
    That may not sound like socialism to you but it doesn’t sound like capitalism to me.
    
    Reply
    1. lascapigliata
      
      2012.04.25
      
      Neoliberalism propaganda : state=socialism=USSR=dictatorship. Save it.
      And personally i found nothing wrong in studying in free schools and univerisities, and having free medical attention growing up, a pleasure my kids won’t be able to have.
2. Iro K.
  
  2012.04.25
  
  “You weren’t led to immigration – you chose, like thousands of others, to leave Greece. You could choose to return. What you mean to say is that you left because opportunities were better elsewhere. You value those opportunities higher than you value swimming the coasts of your islands. No-one has forced you to leave anymore than those who stayed in Greece were forced to do so.”
  
  Actually, there are NO opportunities here anymore. I personally hold 2 university degrees (one for physics and a CELTA – while working on my DELTA module 1) and there absolutely no jobs for me in this economy; not because i refuse to work for 300 euros (which I am sadly desperate enough to do) but because nobody here is hiring (if anything people are being laid off every day). That is why I will BE FORCED to leave the country..
  
  Reply
  1. Mihalis
    
    2012.04.25
    
    Welcome to the club: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/22/job-market-college-graduates_n_1443738.html
    
    Reply
    1. Iro K.
      
      2012.04.25
      
      So, I should stay here and live off my mother’s retirement cheques, just because Americans deal with the same issue??? I don’t believe your reply to my comment made any difference, Sorry.
  2. MichaelC
    
    2012.04.26
    
    Iro. I understand your predicament. You have qualifications that the Greek economy does not currently require. If I were you I would be furious with your government – perhaps you are.
    
    But, given your qualifications I would argue that there might be opportunities and that you just have to look very hard to find them. If you have two degrees in physics you are smarter than the average person. You could start a business on your own if you could find a product or service the public requires. Alternatively, you could look abroad for employment – I realize that isn’t something you want to do currently – if you change your mind you can send me your resume at michael-cleveland1@hotmail.com I have a good friend who is a physicist working for General Electric – perhaps they are looking for more physicists.
    
    Reply
MichaelC

2012.04.25

I find it amusing that you dismiss my position as ‘propaganda.’ I stated that Greece’s economy could not genuinely be described as ‘capitalist’ when ownership of a large portion of economic assets was in control of the government.

The fact that your kids won’t get ‘free’ medical care and education has something to do with the fact that you’re wrong in assuming it was ‘free’ to begin with. Are you supposing the doctors and teachers worked for free, the pharmaceutical companies researched, developed, produced, marketed and retailed the products they made that you used for ‘free.’ No, of course not. Someone paid for those.

The fact that the consumer didn’t pay for those items you received for ‘free’ is evidence that you did not live in a free market economy. Hence the free market economy cannot be blamed for the economic crisis in Greece. To pay for your ‘free’ stuff, the Greek government had to borrow money that they could not pay back and now you are complaining that your kids won’t get free stuff anymore? Who should pay for your kids to get free stuff? And why shouldn’t it be you who pays for it?

Reply
1. lascapigliata
  
  2012.04.25
  
  A “large” portion of assets meaning how many? Is this portion bigger that other capitalist countries?
  
  I really don’ think so. Then again with the neoliberal track of thought, a public beach, enjoyed by everyone is much too big of a waste.
  
  I think we should privitize the air we breeth. New oppurtunities for development.
  
  Of course nothing is “free”. But low class people were given the oppurtonity to study and develope. The massive global mistake, introduced by Reagan and Thatcher policies, is that we stopped taxing the rich, and started borrowing money from them (!) , taking back anything good New Deal had to offer, and leading us to the current global crisis, that affected the greek situation (contrary to mass conviction in Greece, greek public workers didn’t ignite the global financial crisis).
  As a big irony, the same neoliberal politics, that have failed eveywhere else, are offered as a medicine to us- being in a vulnerable situation we can’t refuse.
  
  In socialism society has the control of means of productions. This wasn’t the case, not even in USSR. The state doesn’t represent society. And “public” and “free” doesn’t correspond necessarily to the state. In fact i would descibe Greece as state capitalism, meaning the state often behaves like a capitalist, forming groups of vile interests around it, that feed of public wealth.
  
  But the state has played the middle man for many decades, between capitalistic greed and social development. Ever since the New Deal, to be exact, which was set to compat a global financial crisis. Without the state intervention middle class in many countries would have never become so big and wealthy. There wouldnt have been public health plans, nor essential public works. And thats a historical fact, that anyone should consider, next time they are so eager to adopt such religious perspectives such “state is evil”, “free market is gonna solve everything”.
  
  Reply
  1. Mihalis
    
    2012.04.25
    
    The large portion of assets, if you look at the statistics, is actually not larger on average than other OECD countries. The same applies to the percentage of the workforce employed in the public sector, which in Greece is actually smaller as a percentage than in, yes, the United States or Germany. Again according to the OECD. But shhhh, don’t tell the neo-liberals that, it’ll kill their argument.
    
    Reply
    1. MichaelC
      
      2012.04.26
      
      I don’t know who the ‘neo-liberals’ are but you are partially right, the Greek government does own a similar share of assets compared with other OECD countries – although it employs more people which ought itself to be disturbing news to you. But this only ‘kills’ another persons argument if he believes that other countries such as the US or Germany are capitalist. They are not – at least not free market capitalist. Germany doesn’t even pretend that it is a free market. It officially calls itself a social-market economy. The United States (sometimes) pretends to be capitalist but it is by no means a free market.
      
      If you are suggesting you have uncovered a flaw in my argument you are a victim of your own logical fallacy.
      
      I don’t argue that Greece’s economy is a shambles because it does not resemble those of other countries. There are important differences in their economies but the reasons are far deeper than Greeece’s differences to, say, the United States or Germany.
      
      Instead, I would argue that policies common to all three countries are leading to economic collapse in all three of those countries – Greece is just further along the road. As an example, already in the United States, people are beginning to call California ‘Greece.’
    2. gazakas
      
      2012.04.26
      
      “the Greek government does own a similar share of assets compared with other OECD countries – although it employs more people which ought itself to be disturbing news to you.” As in the case of whether there are any Greeks at all, you should check facts more carefully. In this study: http://129.3.20.41/eps/pe/papers/0507/0507011.pdf, you will find charts (i.e. p.5) that illustrate a completely different reality.
    3. gazakas
      
      2012.04.26
      
      *”any Greeks starving” sorry for the typo.
    4. MichaelC
      
      2012.04.26
      
      “As in the case of whether there are any Greeks at all, you should check facts more carefully. In this study:”
      
      Gazakas. Why do you assume that I do not check facts? First, your data is a little old. Second, I have the following which is supportive of what I had written,
      
      “Compared to other OECD countries, Greece relies more
      heavily on government employees in the production process than
      private sector producers and service providers.”
      
      This is from a 2011 OECD Report,
      
      But the issue is not only one of direct public employment. I also mentioned indirect employment. I am willing to admit that the 25% may or may not be correct – I read it months ago and was shocked but it may have been inaccurate.
MichaelC

2012.04.25

Your logic is wanting and this is disappointing given that logic originates in Greece. If other countries have a large portion of assets in government control it doesn’t make Greece capitalist.

So the government must own beaches? I suppose the government must also own the internet (add to that Google, Youtube etc) after all, otherwise everyone could not enjoy it.

Why should we privatize air? The government doesn’t own it so how could it be privatized? Who would sell it? Who would get the benefits from the sale? Again, your argument is silly.

From what I hear from Greek friends the state of Greek education is dismal. When studying abroad at university I met many Greeks who said that Greek universities were not particularly good. Government education might be made available to the ‘low class’ but so what? What of the ‘low class’ working people who have to pay taxes to those who want to go to university. Statistics show that the vast majority of university students in many western (I expect all) come from the middle and upper classes. I don’t see why the working class should pay taxes to subsidize the education of the middle classes. But forgive me, I derive from the working class so perhaps I do not have solidarity with the upper classes.

Who stopped taxing the rich? From what the statistics show the rich are taxed a great deal and let us not pretend that Reagan and Thatcher have anything to do with the Greek taxation system.

Oh, the New Deal was good? Why was the New Deal good? How did the end of the New Deal lead to this ‘global’ (funny no crisis in Australia) crisis? Please, I am interested in understanding your reasons for the ‘current global crisis.’

Who suggests that the greek public workers ignited the ‘global financial crisis?’ I would say that the financial crisis you speak of dried up credit opportunities for the Greek government which meant that it could no longer continue borrowing more than it could possibly pay back – and exposed the inefficiency and corruption of the Greek public service but I don’t suggest that they caused it.

I don’t know what neo-liberal politics are so I cannot presume to understand how they caused the crisis everywhere.

As an economist, I do know this much. The United States, when finding itself in a economic recession after the collapse of the internet bubble, was encouraged by Keynesian economists to reduce interest rates dramatically and increase fiscal spending. This is precisely what the US government did in 2004 when the federal reserve rate was dropped to 1% This is the nominal rate but in fact the real rate of interest (calculating inflation) was below 0% That effectively means you were being paid to borrow money.

The interest rate was set by the state – this much is clear. So what happens next? Well this ridiculously cheap money was used to speculate in real estate. Why real estate? Well the government encouraged real estate speculation by guaranteeing mortgages in America. If I can sell a mortgage to the government then the risk isn’t so high so I don’t have to do so much due diligence anymore. Great! So Americans everywhere began speculating. Nurses left their jobs to become real estate agents. Teachers left their jobs to become mortgage brokers. There was lots of money to be earned when house prices were increasing so rapidly.

There is something strange though – how can there be so much money available to borrow when Americans have so little savings? Of course, the central bank was printing money. So the government prints more and more money and then goes and buys more mortgages. Millions of new homes are being built but these homes are, in many cases, not wanted by anyone. Billions of dollars of resources are used to produce something that the free market never asked for but instead governments encouraged.

A similar story played out in Spain, Portugal, Ireland real estate markets (there seems to be a pattern developing).

But eventually the party ends and the money dries up. No money left for the Greek government either. Like the real estate speculator, the Greek government also speculated. It speculated that it could keep borrowing money and no-one would notice that they wouldn’t be paid back.

I agree with you that the state doesn’t equate to society. I would also agree that there are, as you put it, ‘vile interests’ that surround it. These interests are often ‘feeding off wealth’ but they do so because the government doesn’t respect private property. It taxes working people and then gives tax money to those who are close the government. But these are crony capitalist interests – they are not free-market capitalist interests. There are only three ways to earn money. You earn it by the economic means – on the free market. You can earn it using political means – crony capitalists and those in government itself. And lastly you can beg for money from someone else.

You claim that without the state there would be a smaller middle class? Where is your evidence for this? The middle class arose out of the industrial revolution when the state was very weak. The middle class has been shrinking whilst the state has been getting larger. Looking at least at correlation the increase is the state in past decades has led to a decline in the middle class. The time that the state has been increasing has also been the same time that the income differences between the working and middle classes have been getting larger compared with the upper classes. But this shouldn’t be a surprise when considering that the state benefits a small group of people close to it.

You again talk about the New Deal. This is a favourite story told by the state in state schools and state universities. There was a global crises and we fixed it with the New Deal. I don’t see any evidence for this. What I see is that an economic crises caused by the state (expansion of money supply in the early 1920s led to the stock market bubble of the late 1920s) was followed by massive state intervention in the economy. Hoover started it and that was followed by Roosevelt who made things considerably worse. In fact the US economy didn’t recover from recession until 1946. The New Deal ended in 1945 so it took less than a year for the economy to recover from the New Deal. Then, with the New Deal over, the working and middle classes saw their incomes rise dramatically and they closed the gap significantly with the upper classes. Since then, however, with the complete government monopolisation of money (i.e. money socialism) that gap has grown larger and the middle class has been in decline.

So I would be careful about what is ‘historical fact’ and what is historical fiction.
This doesn’t sound like

Reply
1. Mihalis
  
  2012.04.25
  
  The end of the New Deal is the cause of the global financial crisis? That statement alone is enough to discredit your entire argument. I think you should be the one that is more careful about historical fiction. In the United States, where the global crisis began, it began under the presidency of George W. Bush, who was not known for his “government monopolization” policies. You really need to go back and hit the books again.
  
  Reply
  1. MichaelC
    
    2012.04.26
    
    I didn’t say that the end of the New Deal is the cause of the ‘global’ financial crisis (it isn’t global by the way just look at Asia and you’ll quickly see that it isn’t). My question to you was how the New Deal led to the outbreak of this crisis we’re in. After all, it was you who said,
    
    “…taking back anything good New Deal had to offer, and leading us to the current global crisis”
    
    You made the claim not I. I realize that English isn’t your native tongue so I don’t blame you if you made an error here but you ought to admit it rather than suggest that I made the claim.
    
    You claim that the ‘global’ crisis (tell me do you use ‘global’ as an indication that Greece’s problems aren’t of her own making?) began under Bush. I would largely agree. But then you claim that he wasn’t known for his government ‘monopolization.’
    
    Number One Bush expanded the size of the US government massively. In fact, John McCain had this to say about the Bush government,
    
    “We have now presided over the largest increase in the size of government since the Great Society”
    
    And this from the Washington Times,
    
    “No president since FDR — who offered a New Deal to pull the nation out of the Great Depression and then fought World War II — has presided over as rapid a growth in government when measured as a percentage of the total economy. ”
    
    read it here,
    
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/19/big-government-gets-bigger/?page=all
    
    So Bush is the biggest spender since your hero Roosevelt. Not good news for your argument is it?
    
    Number 2. Since I outlined that the cause of the economic crisis in the US began with the dropping of the Federal Reserve rate I neecessarily believe that the crisis began with the government of the United States. Are you suggesting the production of money is not a monopoly? Can you legally print money in your basement? Can an American citizen print money? No? Who can print money? Oh, the government can. That is called a monopoly.
    
    Please, don’t pretend that it is I who needs to hit the books. I have taught economics at university, I feel confident that I stack up better than you do on this issue.
    
    Reply
2. JOhn
  
  2012.04.25
  
  I only wish to reply in the New Deal section. In my opinion New Deal gave the necessary kick in the economy and the “War Effort”. Infrastructure was made for the production of war supplies and this infrastructure later was converted for domestic. thus American economy saw the results of the new deal after the war (1946). I even wrote a paper for the subject! (I am out of the point of this article but whatever!!! :P)
  
  Reply
  1. Mihalis
    
    2012.04.25
    
    If it wasn’t for the New Deal, much of the infrastructure that the United States utilizes to this day would simply not exist, and we would be talking about a much different country and society today. Most school buildings that are still in use were New Deal projects. Many of the original highways that were constructed were New Deal projects. It is absolute nonsense to blame the New Deal for the global financial collapse decades later, but it does reflect neo-liberal revisionist wishful thinking.
    
    Reply
3. lascapigliata
  
  2012.04.25
  
  It took a year to recover from New Deal?
  
  But New Deal regulations and social programms didnt stop in 1945.
  “In addition, the rapid expansion of the nation’s infrastructure by the federal government from the 1930s through the 1960s also had a dramatic impact on the economic development of the country. Again this impact was greatest for whites, as areas of white population received a far disproportionate level of development. Indeed white rural America was the most disproportionate beneficiary of the infrastructural building boom of the 1930s-1960s, with programs like FDR’s Rural Electrification Program, the Tennessee Valley Authority, and road development programs transforming thousands of isolated areas from areas with no electricity, no running water, and and no paved roads in 1930 into places with electricity, running water, paved roads, and telephones by 1940. The interstate highway system commissioned by Dwight Eisenhower in 1956 literally paved the way, along with prior government initiatives, for the rapid development of the middle-class American suburbs.”
  
  For whoever is interested i have translated this in greek .
  
  Reply
  1. plagal
    
    2012.04.25
    
    Great article thanks for the link!!
    
    Reply
  2. MichaelC
    
    2012.04.26
    
    The New Deal / central planning continued during WW2 but was wound down at its conclusion. US government spending was reduced from around US 100 billion in 1945 to US 33 billion in 1948.
    
    You state that Eisenhower began building roads beginning in 1956 and that this led to prosperity. Eisenhower, however, with the aid of his policy, kicked off a serious recession in 1958. Building roads and schools may lead to growth but growth is only good if it is natural. Building houses that stand empty is not productive. Building roads to nowhere is not productive.
    
    America’s great suburban sprawl began in the 1950s and people by the 1960s were fleeing from the suburbs. Was this good for growth, the environment, society generally? Government policy may have encouraged it but was it genuinely good? Many economists and sociologists argue that it wasn’t.
    
    Reply
    1. MichaelC
      
      2012.04.26
      
      That should read ‘fleeing for the suburbs’ not ‘from’
    2. lascapigliata
      
      2012.04.26
      
      The only reason that middle class was created in America, and is being used as argument in favour of capitalism, thoughout the world, are these state interventions. I don’t know if thats good or bad you tell me.
      Plus you seem very eager to dismiss all government work as worthless, but that doesnt seem the case. “Roads to nowhere?” Where did that come from?
    3. MichaelC
      
      2012.04.27
      
      lascapigliata, you have suggested that the government created the middle class but without saying how. You don’t have an argument for your claim so it is difficult to dispute it.
      
      However, I would argue that the claim itself is ridiculous. The middle class emerged with the introduction of capitalism in Europe in Northern Italy, the secessionist Netherlands and Southern Germany. Increasing trade led to the creation of a merchant class which is the origin of the middle class – men who were not noblemen and at the same time they were not labourers.
      
      If we look at the places where capitalism and the middle class arose we notice that in all instances at the time the state was very weak. In Northern Italy and Southern Germany there existed city states and small principalities. It was precisely the decentralized power and the weakness of feudalism that allowed the merchants to rise. Because a merchant could easily move from one state to another, none of the small states could afford to exploit the early capitalists or else they would leave and move to another small state (which they often did). So it wasn’t a strong state that led to the rise of either capitalism or the middle class but, instead, it was smaller, weak states that allowed this class to emerge.
      
      On your other point – I don’t dismiss all government work as useles.. Obviously, teachers, nurses are good things for society. I would argue however that we would have teachers and nurses without government and that the market place does a better job of both education and health than the government can do. You ask about ‘roads to nowhere’ – this is an expression used for government construction that serves a political rather than economic purpose. In Japan, Eastern Germany, the United States etc etc there are a great many construction projects that were financed by government but serve no real economic purpose. A complete waste of productive resources. In China, whole cities have been built by the government that stand empty of people. Take a look for yourself,
      
      http://www.businessinsider.com/pictures-chinese-ghost-cities-2010-12
plagal

2012.04.25

MichaelC, I honestly appreciate the time and effort you’re putting in replying here. I am going to reply to your initial comment, but I don’t see the use of starting a long point-by-point discussion that I think from the looks of it will inevitably only end up in a “argee-to-disagree-on-what-the-first-principles-are” situation.

So, the West. Of course it wasn’t invented and of course not “by Greece”. The “invention of the West by Ancient Greece” is in fact exactly the reverse: the appropriation of the Ancient Greeks by the West. The Muslim cultures of the East can lay just as good a claim to the Ancient Greek heritage. Hell, even east asian cultures can. Ancient Greece, just like all other Ancient cultures are the Heritage Of Humanity As A Whole. When I “apologize”, I was trying to be cheeky. Apparently, it didn’t work, meh.

Owing money. Yes, my government over-borrowed. Why was it able to? Why was credit cheap? The people currently moralistically enforcing austerity are like the drug dealer who is moralizing to his junkie clientele.

What’s a ‘euro-racist’? It’s anyone who disseminates racist stereotypes of “lazy, irrational southerners”. Quoting the introduction the book “The Balkans: Nationalism, War & the Great Powers, 1804-1999″ by Misha Glenny: “[…] generalizations about the peoples who inhabit the region, and their histories, were spread by media organizations, that had long ago outlawed such cliches when reporting from Africa, the Middle East or China. The Balkans apparently enjoy a special exemption from the rules against stereotyping”.

Freedom vs Capitalism. Yea right, no point debating this, we’re coming from radically different points of view and I’m not going to start a discussion about Marx here.

In fact you’re partly right about immigration. When I left Greece, I wasn’t immigrating. I was choosing to come to Canada for the better academic opportunities (and to experience the “abroad”). What made me an immigrant was not the initial decision, but the current situation that precludes me finding a job in Greece. Not a fancy academic job, any job. And screw me, go talk about “choices” to M. who’s now an illegal immigrant in the States. “Choice” my ass, eh, just like “choosing to starve or not”, give me a break.

Reply
1. Mihalis
  
  2012.04.25
  
  Here I will agree wholeheartedly with you about the debt issue. Your analogy about the enforced austerity and the drug dealer is spot-on, and I wish more people understood the issue in this manner, instead of making blanket statements like “the Greeks lived beyond their means” (a favorite of the media). Of course they did, but who is responsible for that? Who made that possible? And are the Greeks the only ones that have? When there is $1 trillion in student loan debt alone in the United States, I think the answer to that is very obvious.
  
  The other issue, however, is that leaving is indeed a choice. Not everyone who is unemployed (one million people) in Greece has left the country. Some have, but a very small percentage of that overall number. And I personally know some who left, were unable to find a job in whatever country (or countries) they went to, and returned to Greece (imagine that!). But I also can speak from personal experience that the problems in Greece exist, to a large extent, elsewhere as well, because we are not talking just about a “Greek crisis” but a global crisis. I personally know at least a half-dozen talented recent college graduates in a variety of fields, from the sciences to the humanities, and at least a couple with advanced degrees, who cannot find ANY job in their field and some of whom are either completely unemployed or working in menial jobs (supermarkets, etc.) to get by. Despite their many years of study, their degrees, their qualifications, the fact that they owe tens of thousands in student loans to pay the exorbitantly high tuition (even at “state” universities). It was reported just the other day that almost half of college graduates in the United States cannot find a job: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/22/job-market-college-graduates_n_1443738.html
  
  Also, according to census statistics in the U.S., almost half the population is living at or near poverty levels. Tens of millions of people have lost their jobs and their homes in recent years. Entire communities have turned into ghost towns due to home foreclosures. Tens of millions of people do not have any medical insurance. Trillions of dollars are spent on unnecessary, wasteful things (including invading other countries illegally). There have been no large-scale infrastructure improvements since the 1960s. But when I’ve shared all of these facts with people in Greece, I’ve been met with disbelief, because they think (and have always thought, even during the good times), that the rest of the world is “living large.” And perhaps because so many people’s impression of the “West” is based on CNN and Hollywood movies, it probably should come as no surprise that they think this way. But they are wrong.
  
  Reply
  1. Nikoletta
    
    2012.04.25
    
    Yes, it is a global crisis.
    No, Greece and the States are not the only countries in the world, so saying that at least 6 new graduates in the States cannot find a job in their fields does not make leaving Greece a choice or the best of two evils. Unfortunately, leaving or staying abroad has way passed the point when it was a choice for far many people (if I am allowed to speak from personal experience as well, although drawing examples from one’s own microcosm inevitably leads to exaggerated conclusions). Under ‘having a choice’ I understand that none of the options under consideration means that one can actually find a decent job (under ‘decent’ please note ‘not ripping others or the state off, not using mom and dad’s connections’, and nothing more than that) to get by without financial support from the loving family.
    
    Reply
    1. Mihalis
      
      2012.04.25
      
      Nikoletta, you once again respond selectively to my comment (not surprisingly…responding to all of it would be too inconvenient for you and your argument!). Did you even click on the link to the news story in my comment above? It’s not six college graduates that cannot find jobs in the United States, it is millions! And yes, the USA and Greece are not the only two countries in the world, but they are two countries I have personal experience with. I can inform you, however, that similar problems exist in many other places as well. Just a few days ago, the New York Times featured an article about the difficulty young people in Europe are having with finding a job. The article didn’t talk very much at all about Greece, but “richer” and bigger countries with more developed industries, like France. It has also been reported in the British press for years that many young Britons are leaving the UK for better opportunities overseas, either because they cannot find work in the UK, or because they cannot afford the high cost of living with the salaries they receive. So once again, this is not just a Greek problem. And yes, the statistics show that the amount of people who have left Greece are not mind-blowingly high (about 4,000 to Germany, for instance, only a few hundred, believe it or not, to Australia, etc.). But as usual, you (and many in Greece) perform to steamroll the issue.
    2. Nikoletta
      
      2012.04.25
      
      While you fully responded to my point of being able to find a job in Greece, thus having a choice of whether to stay or not, right?
      Yes, I did read the article, and I do not doubt unemployment is high in the States. However, for the sake of completeness, let’s point out, that it refers to Bachelor Degree holders, commenting that most are employed in office jobs (so what?), describing people not knowing what they are looking for or disappointed that “their hopes a degree would pay off despite higher tuition and mounting student loans.” are not fulfilled. The example of the “creative writing major” not finding a suitable job leaves me wondering what kind of job this should be, and what should be said about all the people with 10+ years of experience that are fired and see no hope in the horizon…
      From the article I would also like to quote that “In addition, U.S. workers increasingly may need to consider their position in a global economy, where they must compete with educated foreign-born residents for jobs. “, which seems to verify the point, that some foreign born residents seem to be finding better opportunities than they do in the country they were born…
    3. Mihalis
      
      2012.04.25
      
      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1579345/Biggest-brain-drain-from-UK-in-50-years.html
      
      This may confirm that people are indeed leaving to find better opportunities abroad. But it also confirms a point I am trying to make: that many who are leaving Greece are going to other troubled countries where, in turn, lots of people are having difficulty finding jobs and, in quite a few cases, leaving if they can.
      
      This to me illustrates once again that it is a global problem, and that migration from one country to another is not necessarily the solution to the problem. Now if that bothers you, that’s your choice.
      
      By the way, the people who are looking for jobs are not just in fields like “creative writing.” The legal profession, for instance, is a field that traditionally has been associated with money, power, and prestige, but in reality, this is increasingly not the case for many, if not most, law graduates in the U.S. today: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224350917718446.html. (I should also add, by the way, that in the U.S., your three years of law school are in addition to your four years of undergraduate education, so these graduates are entering a horrible job market with, in many cases, 7+ years’ of educational debt that they are then forced to pay back on clerical entry-level salaries of $25.000 a year. Try living and starting a family in any major U.S. city on that money and see how well you do.
2. MichaelC
  
  2012.04.26
  
  I realized the ‘apology’ was an attempt at saracasm, I explained that it doesn’t work because it only would if the initial claim was legitimate. Just because you were born where the ancients (perhaps they were your forefathers but then, perhaps they weren’t) spent time on serious thinking doesn’t mean you or the Greeks as a whole or their government can claim any credit. Personally, I believe each person is an individual and can only claim credit for what he himself has achieved. I can take no more pride in what your father has achieved than what my own has achieved in his life. Only he can do that.
  
  I understand your ‘euro-racist’ comment although I think ‘racist’ is a lead word here. Really, what you are talking about is ‘culturalist.’ No doubt some stereotypes are partially deserved but as I stated before each person is an individual and ought to be treated as such. Greece’s government was particularly bad but essentially their policies are just the same as those of other Western nations only faster paced.
  
  On your position on freedom. I would argue that you believed I had a right to my own opinions and my own body. Otherwise you wouldn’t argue with me. In fact, you cannot, using argument deny that I am the rightful owner of my body because if you were to do so, in the act of arguing you would be contradicting yourself. This is called argumentation ethics. So, if I am the rightful owner of my body then I am also the rightful owner of what I produce with my labour. I I produce a capital good then, it too, is mine. A marxist cannot claim otherwise without contradicting himself.
  
  You could, of course, use violence instead of argument, which history has shown is the favourite tool of marxists in power.
  
  But if freedom is defined as living in the absence of aggression then clearly communism cannot lead to freedom because confiscating someone’s property is an act of aggression – i.e. and absence of freedom. Personally, I find this a very easy concept to understand.
  
  On your point on choice you’re wrong. You weren’t going to starve in Greece – no-one starves there because you have a relative abundance of food. Instead, what you were choosing was a better life over the one you had in Greece. You weren’t choosing life instead of death – you were choosing a better life. If a successful manager leaves his company for better pay he has exercised his free choice. You are no different to him in principle. Neither you nor he has been forced (force being an act of violence) to do anything.
  
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  1. gazakas
    
    2012.04.26
    
    “no-one starves there because you have a relative abundance of food” LOL. I guess you know better than us. Living in Greece it’s not really a qualification for that piece of absurd certainty.
    
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  2. Iro K.
    
    2012.04.26
    
    So by your logic, if my country has an abundance of food (which I seriously doubt) but I have no job (= no money), I won’t starve??? Will I be paying for food using air?
    
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    1. MichaelC
      
      2012.04.26
      
      Greece is known to have a mild climate able to grow a considerable amount of food. Historically, a great many Greeks worked in small scale agriculture and fishing. This much I have learnt. I also learnt that Greece used to be called the fruit basket of Europe. Perhaps things have changed since then – I don’t know. I do honestly doubt anyone is starving in Greece.
      
      To answer you Iro. Yes, if you cannot pay for food and you cannot steal any and you cannot beg successfully for any and you cannot grow your own then you starve. That is quite logical. Are you honsetly suggesting that you have not eaten today?
Αργυρώ

2012.04.25

Συγγνώμη, αλλά γιατί η κουβέντα γίνεται στα εγγλέζικα κα με κουράζετε; ε; ε; :Ρ

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1. lascapigliata
  
  2012.04.25
  
  Το παίζουμε διεθνείς μάλλον 😛
  
  Reply
Mihalis

2012.04.25

Απαντώ στα Αγγλικά στα σχόλια που είναι γραμμένα στα Αγγλικά, και αναντώ στα Ελληνικά στα σχόλια που είναι στην Ελληνική γλώσσα. Πάντως, δίκιο έχτε…όλοι Έλληνες είμαστε, καθόμαστε όμως και μιλάμε μεταξύ μας στα Αγγλικά, και μάλιστα, το άρθρο αυτό είναι επίσης στα Αγγλικά. Έχουμε μια πολύ πλούσια γλώσσα που είναι δική μας. Ας την χρησιμοποιήσουμε και ας παρατήσουμε αυτή την ξενομανία που κυριαρχεί εδώ και πολλά χρόνια στην Ελλάδα.

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plagal

2012.04.25

Mihalis, σου εδωσα κιτρινη καρτα πριν για υπερ-ποσταρισμα. Μη με κανεις να αρχισω να φλαγκαρω τα σχολια σου ως σπαμ. Και, παρακαλω, υπολοιποι σχολιαστες σταματηστε το ταισμα.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

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1. Mihalis
  
  2012.04.25
  
  Θα δώσεις κίτρινη κάρτα και σε σχόλια τύπου “get a life” η επειδή μάλλον συμφωνείς με αυτά, τους δίνεις το πράσινο φώς?
  
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  1. plagal
    
    2012.04.25
    
    Σου ειπα ευγενικα ευγενικα, 2 φορες να σταματησεις το υπερποσταρισμα. Δεν με ακουσες και στο μεταξυ ποσταρες 3-4 καινουρια σχολια, κατηγορωντας με και αποπανω οτι εσβησα σχολια μου (λιγο πολυ δηλαδη οτι σου κανω gaslighting). Σου λινκαρα και την πολιτικη σχολιασμου μου και αποτι φαινεται δεν την διαβασες (δες ειδικα το κομματι που λεει ποιος αποφασιζει τι ειναι τρολαρισμα).
    
    Λοιπον, κοκκινη καρτα, συντροφε. Ή μαλλον μιας και εδω στο Canada παιζουμε χοκει, στο penalty box μεχρι την Παρασκευη. Στο ενδιαμεσο τα σχολια σου θα τσεκουρωνονται.
    
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    1. Mihalis
      
      2012.04.25
      
      Το σχολιο αυτο εχει πειραχτει απο το διαχειριστη, ο οποιος λεει: Οπως σου ειπα, μεχρι την Παρασκευη, τα σχολια σου θα τσεκουρωνονται.
elena

2012.04.26

για όσους διαρυγνύουν τα ιμάτιά τους για να δηλώσοθν διαδηλώσουν την ελληνικότητά τους τους αφιερώνω το μάνα μου ελλάς

άκρως διδακτικό
γιατί οι κορωνίδες τύπου Κατερίνας Μουτσάτσου οδηγούν στη λήθη και σε καμμία περίπτωση σε κάποια έστω και λίγο ειλικρινή αυτογνωσία.

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1. Κωνσταντίνος
  
  2012.04.26
  
  Αν πραγματικά νομίζετε πως τα προβλήματα της Ελλάδας υπάρχουν μόνο στην Ελλάδα, κάνετε τραγικό λάθος. Φαίνεται πως δεν έχετε την δυνατότητα να ξεχωρίσετε τα πολιτικά/οικονομικά προβλήματα της χώρας από οτιδήποτε άλλο θέμα. Πάντως, αυτό που είναι γνωστό είναι πως αυτή η νοοτροπία της κατωτερώτητας δεν είναι καινούριο φαινόμενο στην Ελλάδα.
  
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  1. kesnar
    
    2012.04.28
    
    Δεν καταλαβαινω γιατι το να μην θεωρεις την χωρα σου γαματη, η τελος παντων καλυτερη/ανωτερη/whateva απο ολες τις αλλες σημαινει ταυτοχρονα οτι την θεωρεις χειροτερη και οτι εχει εχει φυγει απο ολες τις αλλες χωρες και εχει μαζευτει σε αυτην ολη η μιζερια του κοσμου…
    Παρ’ολ’αυτα το γεγονος οτι τα ιδια προβληματα υπαρχουν και στις αλλες χωρες του κοσμου δεν σημαινει οτι μπορουμε να τα ανεχτουμε…και στην τελικη αν οντως αγαπαμε τοοοοοσο πολυ και θελουμε να εχουμε τοοοσο γαματη χωρα γιατι να μην εξαλειψουμε τα προβληματα που υπαρχουν σε αυτη(hint: αυτα δεν ειναι οι μεταναστες), για να γινει ομως κατι τετοιο θα πρεπει πρωτα απ’ ολα να τα αναγνωρισουμε και να τα αντιμετωπισουμε και οχι να τα κρυβουμε κατω απο το χαλακι (η μαλλον κουφαρι) των περασμενων μεγαλειων…
    
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